discuss.
Full Version: An interesting engine swap.
discuss.
Sumbitch oughta haul ball!
Ah, the infamous LS2Miata makes it's DS entrance.
The most discussion worthy point about this car is how much custom fabrication was required to fit the engine. While many LSx swaps (the RX-7 being notable) are straightforward with little modification, stuffing an SBC into a Miata isn't simple or cheap.
I'll post up pics, specs and construction details when I find 'em.
The most discussion worthy point about this car is how much custom fabrication was required to fit the engine. While many LSx swaps (the RX-7 being notable) are straightforward with little modification, stuffing an SBC into a Miata isn't simple or cheap.
I'll post up pics, specs and construction details when I find 'em.
Here is pretty much all the info on this car. Some of the info in these quotes is redundant, but pretty much whatever you want to know about this car is here.
1994 Laguna Blue Mazda Miata
2006 Corvette LS2
T-56 six speed
Ford 8.8 IRS 3:73 gears Detroit helical posi
weight: ~2500 lbs
Cliff Notes: "After a year and a half building this, I wish I would have just turboed the Miata." - last quote
And the pictures: http://s33.photobucket.com/albums/d63/LS2V8Miata/
1994 Laguna Blue Mazda Miata
2006 Corvette LS2
T-56 six speed
Ford 8.8 IRS 3:73 gears Detroit helical posi
weight: ~2500 lbs
Cliff Notes: "After a year and a half building this, I wish I would have just turboed the Miata." - last quote
QUOTE
Engine bay is a great fit after firewall & subframe mods.
I initially looked at an LS2 in a Solstice and the 18K above retail to order a Mallett conversion put me off, but most of all, the idea of retaining a 5 speed trans and a rear-end designed for a Duratec 4 cyclinder left me cold.
Hence the T-56 six speed and Ford 8.8 rear end.
The fly-by-wire throttle body costs about an extra $1200.00 in parts (GTO pedal, wiring harness differences & PCM) to run "stand alone" in any car. I have a great new 90 MM cable throttle body (not a FAST) the FBW one in the picture is for sale.
I hammer my cars HARD and learned along time ago the weakest link is always the first to grenade, so I try to build it right the first time
I initially looked at an LS2 in a Solstice and the 18K above retail to order a Mallett conversion put me off, but most of all, the idea of retaining a 5 speed trans and a rear-end designed for a Duratec 4 cyclinder left me cold.
Hence the T-56 six speed and Ford 8.8 rear end.
The fly-by-wire throttle body costs about an extra $1200.00 in parts (GTO pedal, wiring harness differences & PCM) to run "stand alone" in any car. I have a great new 90 MM cable throttle body (not a FAST) the FBW one in the picture is for sale.
I hammer my cars HARD and learned along time ago the weakest link is always the first to grenade, so I try to build it right the first time
QUOTE
Yeah it kinda sucks because we've had to design & fab everything major like K-member, relocate steering rack, rear-end, suspension, everything!!
Most of the pictures are a couple of months old with a 2000 LS1 in the car for a test fit. We're modding the car again installing a 2006 Corvette LS2 and freshened up T-56.
Most of the pictures are a couple of months old with a 2000 LS1 in the car for a test fit. We're modding the car again installing a 2006 Corvette LS2 and freshened up T-56.
QUOTE
The Red V8 Miata is my buddy Bill's, it's a modded Ford 5.0 about 415 RWHP. He's put 60,000 miles on since the V8 and about 10,000 race track, hammering miles.
The Laguna Blue one is mine.
Radiators we use are from Ron Davis racing radiators, Bill is their Sales Manager.
My radiator design is a Corvette style cross-flow shrouded, with dual 12" Spal fans. It's about 60% greater cooling efficiency than an OEM F-body radiator, it tilts back slightly fitting in the Miata's stock location.
I did a 240Z with a Ford 289 & T-10 back in 1988.
I've dropped two MOMO Seats in with no rails on the floor and I fit fine, I'm 6'2" 275 Lbs. Bill is about my size too.
There are alot of Miatas around but when you factor in the cost even of an older used one like mine; 1994 and add everything to do it right you could build a Factory Five Cobra kit or a number of other cars. The kit parts would have to be outrageously priced to profit marginally and most companies would FREAK at the liability associated with a 400 HP 2400 Lb Car.
Some people balk at the price of a Mallett LS2 Solstice when you could almost buy a Vette for the same price. That Solstice still uses the OEM Pontiac 5-speed and Solstice rear-end.
I'm using a Ford 8.8 IRS with a Detroit Posi and the T-56 six speed
The Laguna Blue one is mine.
Radiators we use are from Ron Davis racing radiators, Bill is their Sales Manager.
My radiator design is a Corvette style cross-flow shrouded, with dual 12" Spal fans. It's about 60% greater cooling efficiency than an OEM F-body radiator, it tilts back slightly fitting in the Miata's stock location.
I did a 240Z with a Ford 289 & T-10 back in 1988.
I've dropped two MOMO Seats in with no rails on the floor and I fit fine, I'm 6'2" 275 Lbs. Bill is about my size too.
There are alot of Miatas around but when you factor in the cost even of an older used one like mine; 1994 and add everything to do it right you could build a Factory Five Cobra kit or a number of other cars. The kit parts would have to be outrageously priced to profit marginally and most companies would FREAK at the liability associated with a 400 HP 2400 Lb Car.
Some people balk at the price of a Mallett LS2 Solstice when you could almost buy a Vette for the same price. That Solstice still uses the OEM Pontiac 5-speed and Solstice rear-end.
I'm using a Ford 8.8 IRS with a Detroit Posi and the T-56 six speed
QUOTE
I've been a GM guy and drag racer my whole life untill about five years ago, when I just got bored with the straight line grind. I went driving on banked ovals and was boring. Got on a World Class roadracing course and I was hooked, man was I hooked.
We built and ran every type and kind of GM car & truck, my first car was a 57 Chevy, I've had GTOs, Camaros, Firebirds, Vettes, Chevelles, El Caminos, econo-dragsters, and a pro-gas vega and
raced cars on Natural Gas and even Hydrogen.
The Miata (which I even refused to drive several times) is one of the most responsive, put a smile on your face, cost effecient sportscars I've ever had.
I love roadracing (on pro courses), it's the biggest challenge to make your car perform on widely varying tracks, in straight line acceleration, off corners, under heavy braking, into and through corners and under all weather condition Hot, Cold & Wet. Roadracing events don't stop for rain.
Haven't run a transponder recently but favorite tracks are Laguna seca, Firebird West and hopefully soon the new East track and PIR's road course. My overall local favorite WAS, AMP (Arizona Motorsports Park) 2.23 Miles 16 corners of 50 foot wide fun, before the politicians shut it down after the first full year.
We built and ran every type and kind of GM car & truck, my first car was a 57 Chevy, I've had GTOs, Camaros, Firebirds, Vettes, Chevelles, El Caminos, econo-dragsters, and a pro-gas vega and
raced cars on Natural Gas and even Hydrogen.
The Miata (which I even refused to drive several times) is one of the most responsive, put a smile on your face, cost effecient sportscars I've ever had.
I love roadracing (on pro courses), it's the biggest challenge to make your car perform on widely varying tracks, in straight line acceleration, off corners, under heavy braking, into and through corners and under all weather condition Hot, Cold & Wet. Roadracing events don't stop for rain.
Haven't run a transponder recently but favorite tracks are Laguna seca, Firebird West and hopefully soon the new East track and PIR's road course. My overall local favorite WAS, AMP (Arizona Motorsports Park) 2.23 Miles 16 corners of 50 foot wide fun, before the politicians shut it down after the first full year.
QUOTE
Ultimately about $25K-30K if you get everything priced close to dealer costs or discounted and how elaborate your tastes get in brakes, suspension and all the other goodies.
Pretty stupid eh, to put that much money in a car that used (1994 Miata) can be bought for around $4000.00 to $5000.00?
Nobody ever said fun had to be logical!
Pretty stupid eh, to put that much money in a car that used (1994 Miata) can be bought for around $4000.00 to $5000.00?
Nobody ever said fun had to be logical!
QUOTE
Really alot of fun, car weighs about 2500 Lbs.
Bill's Miata, (415 RWHP) displays really hard acceleration as you roll into the throttle with a surprising, solid, tight feel to the entire car. It only breaks loose and smokes the tires when you want it to, once you've learned to drive it.
Our Miatas are built primarily for roadracing, however the first time to the dragstrip, Bill's ran a 12.10 on street tires without even leaving hard and was promptly told by officials observing how easy the car did 12, no more runs possibly exceeding 11 sec until additional safety/tech issues were addressed to their satisfaction.
Bill, was understandably not willing to modify his car just for dragracing specs, so he just left that day. We really don't know how fast our Miatas could be in the quarter mile, but you can find posts of Mazda RX7s with LS1 V8s running low tens (10.23, I believe)
Bill's Miata, (415 RWHP) displays really hard acceleration as you roll into the throttle with a surprising, solid, tight feel to the entire car. It only breaks loose and smokes the tires when you want it to, once you've learned to drive it.
Our Miatas are built primarily for roadracing, however the first time to the dragstrip, Bill's ran a 12.10 on street tires without even leaving hard and was promptly told by officials observing how easy the car did 12, no more runs possibly exceeding 11 sec until additional safety/tech issues were addressed to their satisfaction.
Bill, was understandably not willing to modify his car just for dragracing specs, so he just left that day. We really don't know how fast our Miatas could be in the quarter mile, but you can find posts of Mazda RX7s with LS1 V8s running low tens (10.23, I believe)
QUOTE
Sunbeam "Tiger" with Ford Hi-Po 289 V8, set up right was the little car of the day that could drop a Cobra 427 SC on any technical road racing course like a bad habit!!
No turbo in my future but maybe, Cam, Springs, Heads, Internals and bolts to about 650 HP if I really get sick, eh?
No turbo in my future but maybe, Cam, Springs, Heads, Internals and bolts to about 650 HP if I really get sick, eh?
QUOTE
The Miata engine was cast iron.
The aluminum LS2 V8 Trans, rear & structural differences including the uneeded things removed from the Miata leaves us with an aprox. weigh gain of about 150-175 Lbs, car balance is still close to 50 / 50.
Total car weight about 2500 Lbs.
The aluminum LS2 V8 Trans, rear & structural differences including the uneeded things removed from the Miata leaves us with an aprox. weigh gain of about 150-175 Lbs, car balance is still close to 50 / 50.
Total car weight about 2500 Lbs.
QUOTE
You have to use a later model T-56 six speed because it fits perfect in the driveshaft tunnel and the shifter comes up in the stock Miata shifter location perfect. I'm using a 2006 Corvette LS2 with lots of mods.
The only things Mazda we actually use are the control arms, gas tank, body, top & glass, everything else is custom fabbed.
The rear-end is a Ford 8.8 IRS from a Cobra with 3:73 gears, Detroit True-trac posi and custom axles.
We have a two bay shop with everything necessary, MIG, TIG including a lift and we're 1 1/2 years into this project.
The only things Mazda we actually use are the control arms, gas tank, body, top & glass, everything else is custom fabbed.
The rear-end is a Ford 8.8 IRS from a Cobra with 3:73 gears, Detroit True-trac posi and custom axles.
We have a two bay shop with everything necessary, MIG, TIG including a lift and we're 1 1/2 years into this project.
QUOTE
Yeah I'm 1 1/2 years in this project and I wish I just got a FM II Turbo kit for a 2nd Miata, that way I could been running the crap outta it having fun and jsut about the time the boosted Miata engine was gonna grenade, my LS2 V8 Miata woulda been finished.
Tires are 215-40-ZR16 all around, close to same "width" as come on stock GTO. You have to really learn to drive the car not just hammer the gas. Even with the massive tires on any roadrace car, Viper GTS, Porsche whatever, WOT produces burning rubber.
When you start a V8 Miata project bring lotsa cash.
Tires are 215-40-ZR16 all around, close to same "width" as come on stock GTO. You have to really learn to drive the car not just hammer the gas. Even with the massive tires on any roadrace car, Viper GTS, Porsche whatever, WOT produces burning rubber.
When you start a V8 Miata project bring lotsa cash.
And the pictures: http://s33.photobucket.com/albums/d63/LS2V8Miata/
Awaiting comments about understeer....
QUOTE(DakianDelomast @ Apr 27 2006, 08:43 PM) 
Awaiting comments about understeer....
I bet that thing understeers like an oil tanker!!
There, happy now?
*note: corvette badge on the front is retarded. Otherwise, no complaints.
QUOTE(DakianDelomast @ Apr 27 2006, 11:43 PM)
Awaiting comments about understeer....
Well I'll stop them before that start.
QUOTE
The Miata engine was cast iron.
The aluminum LS2 V8 Trans, rear & structural differences including the unneeded things removed from the Miata leaves us with an aprox. weigh gain of about 150-175 Lbs, car balance is still close to 50 / 50.
The aluminum LS2 V8 Trans, rear & structural differences including the unneeded things removed from the Miata leaves us with an aprox. weigh gain of about 150-175 Lbs, car balance is still close to 50 / 50.
One of the reasons it's taking so long to build is the firewall had to "clearanced" to move the engine back for weight distribution. Also, in the LS2/T56 combo, the LS2 is not much heavier than many engines while the T56 is way heavier than most 5-speed Japanese transmissions. Thus a large portion of the weight gained is from the transmission, being closer to the center of the car, this affects weight distribution less.
And lastly, it's not the same car, but an LS1 (Without air conditioning)/T56 combo into a turbo five-speed FC RX-7 actually improves the weight distribution. There's no reason to doubt that a well designed LS2/T56 setup in a Miata can't do similar.
Edit: Fuck you, clark. You responded too fast.
...Do oil tankers understeer...?
QUOTE(DakianDelomast @ Apr 27 2006, 09:06 PM)
...Do oil tankers understeer...?
Imagine taking an oil tanker that's moving at a good clip and throwing the rudder hard right (or left). Then imagine how long it takes to turn.
Yeah, oil tankers understeer.
But they steer in the back not in the front. I don't think understeer is posible on a nautical vessel.
QUOTE(DakianDelomast @ Apr 27 2006, 09:09 PM)
But they steer in the back not in the front. I don't think understeer is posible on a nautical vessel.
Depends on how you define understeer...if you define it in the stricter automotive sense of having the front tires lose grip before the rears, then no, it's not applicable. If you define it as being the tendency to go straight despite steering input, then yes, it is applicable.
Whatever floats your boat (pun intended)
Where's a sea captain when you need him...
QUOTE(DakianDelomast @ Apr 27 2006, 09:11 PM)
Where's a sea captain when you need him...
I steered a 500 foot oceanographic survey vessel in heavy seas in the south pacific for about 20 minutes
QUOTE(DakianDelomast @ Apr 28 2006, 12:09 AM)
But they steer in the back not in the front. I don't think understeer is posible on a nautical vessel.
But isn't the definition of understeer the vehicle turns less than the steering angle dictates?
In a tanker going full throttle, throwing the rudder hard a' starboard would do nothing at first and the ship would slowly begin changing direction. It's not traditional understeer like on a dry racetrack, more like a car completely losing traction on an icy road. But understeer none the less.
Lets go rent an oiltanker and find out. Analysis by experiment!
Thanks for backing me up PBB
QUOTE(green73ta @ Apr 27 2006, 10:08 PM)
Sumbitch oughta haul ball!
So eloquent and so true.
QUOTE(DakianDelomast @ Apr 28 2006, 05:17 AM)
Lets go rent an oiltanker and find out. Analysis by experiment!
Let's meet at midnight by the docks . I'm sure we can find an oiltanker to "rent" .
QUOTE(McKhaos @ Apr 28 2006, 08:53 AM)
Let's meet at midnight by the docks . I'm sure we can find an oiltanker to "rent" .
does it have to be an oil tanker ? Could we experiment using a destroyer or a aircraft carrier ?
QUOTE(McKhaos @ Apr 28 2006, 06:53 AM)
Let's meet at midnight by the docks . I'm sure we can find an oiltanker to "rent" .
yes comrade
QUOTE(dukenukem @ Apr 28 2006, 07:26 AM)
does it have to be an oil tanker ? Could we experiment using a destroyer or a aircraft carrier ?
Any of y'all hear bout the LS1's in the 911 Targa, and the 928 I think it is by toy jet conversions ?. I've actually seen both of the cars, they are wild.
Yeah I have nothing to add cept Miate + ls2 = zee end !
Yeah I have nothing to add cept Miate + ls2 = zee end !
i don't think it would understeer too bad when you think about the advantages the LS2 has over a miata motor.
-Aluminum construction - not a big weight gain
-90* V - lower center of gravity
-pushrod or "Cam in Block" design - lower center of gravity (there isn't all that weight up top of the motor from valvetrain)
-400 lb-ft of torque - if it understeers you just nail it.
I think this looks like a pain in the ass but it would be a fuckin' riot. I give it 4,000,000 thumbs up.
-Aluminum construction - not a big weight gain
-90* V - lower center of gravity
-pushrod or "Cam in Block" design - lower center of gravity (there isn't all that weight up top of the motor from valvetrain)
-400 lb-ft of torque - if it understeers you just nail it.
I think this looks like a pain in the ass but it would be a fuckin' riot. I give it 4,000,000 thumbs up.
I may have glossed over the details, but what is the weight of the old engine vs the new engine? My gut says it's gunna be an anchor at the front, but I could be wrong and the difference is 50 lbs.
Gettin' the power down is gunna be another matter.
Gettin' the power down is gunna be another matter.
PBB and I figured the weight difference to be about 120 lbs in the nose of the car I think.
Yup and about 30 pounds of that is the transmission so the center of gravity for the engine and transmission together is going to be lower and further back in the car than stock.
This is nothing like adding a 120 pound lead bumper.
This is nothing like adding a 120 pound lead bumper.
QUOTE(CRiZO @ Apr 28 2006, 01:56 PM)
I dunno about you guys but that looks like a massive oversteer drrrrriffftoooo to me.
Makes we want to get a miata now. Needs to lose the corvette badge tho.
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