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Megadeus
QUOTE
Volkswagen to yank slow-selling Phaeton from U.S. market next summer
DIANA T. KURYLKO | Automotive News
WIM OUDE WEERNINK | Automotive News Europe
Posted Date: 11/14/05
Volkswagen AG is admitting defeat with the Phaeton. VW plans to pull the slow-selling luxury car from the U.S. market next summer.

The Phaeton is losing money in the United States. "It is not a viable business case anymore," says Hans-Gerd Bode, a VW spokesman at the company's global headquarters in Wolfsburg, Germany.
The decision to pull the plug was made by Wolfgang Bernhard, head of the VW brand worldwide, and Adrian Hallmark, the new executive vice president of Volkswagen of America Inc.

The executives decided Volkswagen will focus on being a volume player in the U.S. market instead of trying to move up-market, Bode says.

"Bernhard and Hallmark said, 'We are a volume producer, and let's go in this direction, beginning with the U.S. market, where we are losing a lot of money,' " Bode says.

Slumping sales

The Phaeton's U.S. sales tumbled to 686 in the first 10 months of 2005 from 1,433 in the year-ago period. That's a 52.1 percent drop.

VW prices the Phaeton at $68,655 for a V-8 model, including a $1,300 gas-guzzler charge. The 12-cylinder version starts at $100,255, including a $3,000 gas guzzler charge.

By contrast, the most expensive four-door VW Passat sedan starts at $32,515 for a 3.6-liter VR6 model.

VW plans to announce the Phaeton decision to dealers today, Nov. 14. Wolfsburg expects Phaeton sales to end in the U.S. market next July or August.

The company will not send the 2007 Phaeton here.

VW will continue to provide customer support to Phaeton owners, Bode says.

VW's U.S. market will focus on core vehicles, including the Passat, Jetta, Golf and Touareg, Bode says, along with new models such as the Eos convertible that is due early next year.

The company's U.S. dealers will get a car above the Passat as part of a product offensive that Bernhard has promised for 2008 and beyond.

Since VW launched the Phaeton in the U.S. market in 2003, the car has not approached its initial sales target of 5,000 a year. This year, the Phaeton does not appear to be on track to hit its lowered U.S. sales target of 1,000.

VWoA offered $10,000 in dealer cash last year on 2004 models.

Bode says it was probably a mistake for VW to launch the Touareg and the Phaeton together. Marketing wasn't sufficient to position both vehicles strategically, he says.

VWoA's marketing also has been inconsistent, Bode says: "In the last year, we didn't have a good marketing effort in the U.S. Today we do this, and tomorrow we do that."

Bode says VWoA's continued losses also affected the decision to yank the Phaeton. VW expected to turn around its fortunes in the United States this year with redesigned versions of the Jetta and Passat and a freshened New Beetle.

This month, though, Wolfsburg announced this year's losses at VWoA are expected to top last year's loss of $1.07 billion.

Chris Curran, a Volkswagen dealer in Stratford, Conn., says "it's no surprise" VW is dropping the Phaeton.

"As the volumes got smaller," says Curran, "they decided they didn't have enough funds to support stronger incentive programs."

Curran says the Phaeton represented too big a jump forfor traditional VW buyers to make. At the same time, he says, luxury buyers did not gravitate to the car.

Says Curran: "People in that high-price range are buying prestige and image, and want the logo to represent that."

Gee, nobody wanted an expensive VW. Imagine that. laugh.gifloser.gif
Pking688
Yeah, no one wanted a good one either.
Phix
I've seen about two Phaetons and I really do like them. I wonder if they will still sell them in Canada?
porschedream
Probably not, if they make no money in the US, why sell in Canada. We represent only a small percentage of NA car sales.
Phix
QUOTE(porschedream @ Nov 16 2005, 10:20 PM) *
Probably not, if they make no money in the US, why sell in Canada. We represent only a small percentage of NA car sales.

pd, you have a new mission.

Buy out the entire Phaeton stock at your local VW dealer and save it from demise in Canada! Only you can do it!
z0ne
well, i kinda figurde frm the beginngng that the phaetons wouldnt sell. i dont think people assosicate VW with luxory/performance . (sroy if that didnt make much sense bt i manto sober tongue_orig.gif)

ironic because i saw a W12 phaeton the other day. was driving under the speed limit wiht the turn signal on, on a highway around me.
leif
its too bad, the Phaeton was an engineering feat by any car makers standards...but I will admit, a little pointless from the company which owns Audi.

I have only seen one in winnipeg, and it had New York plates...
clarkma5
It's a shame, it was an excellent car, and I love its completely understated style...it was so much classier than a BMW or Mercedes or even a Jag in my book. I mean, yeah, VW shouldn't've built it because the rest of their lineup stagnated while they developed it, but the end result was fantastic.
Mitlov
To this day I don't understand why they sold it under the VW nameplate. That would be like Daimler-Chrysler building a super-luxurious, $80,000 luxury sedan and selling it under the Dodge nameplate. Nobody buying a car that expensive wants to share a nameplate with Jettas and Golfs. I think that alone doomed the Phaeton.
Jordan
QUOTE(Mitlov @ Nov 16 2005, 09:33 PM) *
To this day I don't understand why they sold it under the VW nameplate. That would be like Daimler-Chrysler building a super-luxurious, $80,000 luxury sedan and selling it under the Dodge nameplate. Nobody buying a car that expensive wants to share a nameplate with Jettas and Golfs. I think that alone doomed the Phaeton.


i agree. an extreme luxury car company can always sell a cheaper car extremely well, but i think we can all agree thats its much harder for a cheaper car company to sell an extreme luxury car. i think the phaeton could've kicked ass if they had worked up to it. but they didnt. they were like... oh yeah we're just Volkswagen, you know being affordable and pretty economic... PSYC! Here is a W12 luxo-cruiser that beats audi's and bmw's in plushness and doesnt best a F250 for gas mileage! if they had made a luxury car that was more expensive than all the others first. not phaeton expensive, but like a 40,000 dollar car, then had that model get slightly more expensive, for a few years. THEN released the phaeton as a "big brother" to this lesser luxury car, then i think people would've gotten into the phaeton more.
clarkma5
QUOTE(Mitlov @ Nov 16 2005, 09:33 PM) *
I think that alone doomed the Phaeton.


Basically, yeah. Technically it was an excellent car, extremely prepared to take on its competitors, and at a fair price point too. The VW badge is what killed it, without a doubt.

I feel sorry for VW being trapped though...they have a simultaneous reputation of being economical and, more recently, of being luxurious, chic, and well thought-out. I can't think of any other car company that has to balance such differing consumer expectations at the same time. In other words, what makes a VW a VW makes it not a VW. No matter what they do they're going to piss somebody off.
nismo
A8>Phaeton. But I still heart.gif the phaeton!
Mitlov
QUOTE(clarkma5 @ Nov 16 2005, 09:51 PM) *
I feel sorry for VW being trapped though...they have a simultaneous reputation of being economical and, more recently, of being luxurious, chic, and well thought-out. I can't think of any other car company that has to balance such differing consumer expectations at the same time. In other words, what makes a VW a VW makes it not a VW. No matter what they do they're going to piss somebody off.


I don't feel sorry for any company that's making money hand-over-fist. Just a general rule wink.gif

I also think that they can, and do, make cars that are either cheap (competing with Honda, Ford, etc) or low-end-luxury (competing with Volvos and Saabs) without pissing people off. It's only when they go for something truly radical--say, a supercar or an ultraluxury car--that people are going to go "huh?!" And that's what happened with the Phaeton. And that's not a real restriction on VW designers, because VW is not on their own--they can always release supercars and ultraluxury cars with Porsche or Audi badges.

While plenty of people are pissed about the Passat's options packages, nobody is bewildered by its existence. While plenty of people are pissed about the fact that some Jettas are made in Mexico, nobody is bewildered by the Jetta's existence.
clarkma5
ha, but VW is losing money, and at a prodigious rate.

And there are some people in the press who are calling the Passat too expensive, the Jetta overpriced, the Golf not basic/cheap enough, etc...it's not the uproar that happened with the Phaeton, but it's there, and it's because there are consumers out there who are expecting one thing from VW and getting another.

Now if they made all their cars cheaper and more basic then people would say "where did the luxury go"? Moreso than any manufacturer...they just can't win.
Mitlov
QUOTE(clarkma5 @ Nov 16 2005, 10:21 PM) *
ha, but VW is losing money, and at a prodigious rate.

I did not know that. [tangent] So what car companies ARE profitable nowadays? Just Honda, Toyota, and BMW? [/tangent]

QUOTE
And there are some people in the press who are calling the Passat too expensive, the Jetta overpriced, the Golf not basic/cheap enough, etc...it's not the uproar that happened with the Phaeton, but it's there, and it's because there are consumers out there who are expecting one thing from VW and getting another.

Now that you mention it, I remember Motor Trend making a one-sentence complaint about the price of the new Passat. But they were comparing it to the Accord and Camry, instead of comparing it to a Volvo S60/V70 or a Saab 9-5. The Passat is certainly fairly priced compared to the Saab and Volvo--and fairly equipped and performing, as well. I wonder why the press continues to compare the Passat to the less-equivalent Japanese family sedans.
DZ302
i've only seen a handful. and usually bland cars with big price tags sell very well here
Dweezil
QUOTE(clarkma5 @ Nov 17 2005, 12:06 AM) *
It's a shame, it was an excellent car, and I love its completely understated style...it was so much classier than a BMW or Mercedes or even a Jag in my book. I mean, yeah, VW shouldn't've built it because the rest of their lineup stagnated while they developed it, but the end result was fantastic.

Agree completely with everything you said, including the part about them being trapped in a situation in which they'll have to alienate one side of the coin and going either way might be a wrong decision. I'd take it over the 7 or 5 series (save M5), anything Jaguar or any Mercedes, Lexus or Infiniti sedan.
Dweezil
QUOTE(Mitlov @ Nov 17 2005, 01:32 AM) *
Now that you mention it, I remember Motor Trend making a one-sentence complaint about the price of the new Passat. But they were comparing it to the Accord and Camry, instead of comparing it to a Volvo S60/V70 or a Saab 9-5. The Passat is certainly fairly priced compared to the Saab and Volvo--and fairly equipped and performing, as well. I wonder why the press continues to compare the Passat to the less-equivalent Japanese family sedans.

VW doesn't want to compete with Saab and Volvo- They want to compete with Chevy, Honda, Nissan and Toyota.
CRiZO
QUOTE(DZ302 @ Nov 16 2005, 11:06 PM) *
i've only seen a handful. and usually bland cars with big price tags sell very well here


ditto... I've only seen one. Which is wierd, when seeing Bentleys and all the sport exotics is nothing special (save for the Enzo... only seen one..
clarkma5
QUOTE(Dweezil @ Nov 16 2005, 11:28 PM) *
VW doesn't want to compete with Saab and Volvo- They want to compete with Chevy, Honda, Nissan and Toyota.


Given the force behind the Touareg and the Phaeton from the management of VW, I'd say you're wrong.

Only after the failure of the Phaeton have they learned that they have to be downmarket. The Passat is VW's way of pushing the envelope of what people will accept...the 3.6 model really is more into Acura/Lexus/Infiniti/BMW/Jaguar etc. etc. territory.

They'll try again with the C1...it will be cheaper than the Phaeton; a closer relative to the Passat. I suspect that it's going to be a hard sell with a sticker in the $40k+ range, even if it does turn out to be a great car...which, as I've said about the Phaeton, is a damn shame.
Mitlov
QUOTE(Dweezil @ Nov 16 2005, 11:28 PM) *
VW doesn't want to compete with Saab and Volvo- They want to compete with Chevy, Honda, Nissan and Toyota.

The Golf/Jetta/etc competes with Chevy, Honda, Nissan, and Toyota. The Passat doesn't, in interior quality, features, and price. This is especially true with the 2006 Passat. It's a step above the midsize cars from those other brands (in the three aforementioned categories). Though it's certainly not at the level of Cadillac/Infiniti/Lexus either.
clarkma5
I think it's fair to say that the Passat basically straddles the line between the luxury market and the mainstream market.

The 2.0T competes with the 6-cylinder offerings from Honda/Toyota/Mazda etc...it's a little down on power compared to them, but it's got all the features with a little more luxury and space. It, then, represents an alternative.

The 3.6, however, has priced itself out of that market. With an MSRP of $40k for a fully loaded 4motion 3.6, the Passat is very much a luxury car. Again, it offers an alternative to the standard entry-level luxury sedan...you get more power and more toys for your $40k, as well as a bigger car, than with Audi/BMW/Infiniti...but it isn't really a sports sedan.

VW has liked to straddle between segments for years now. The MkIV Jetta was an economy car in its basic trims and a cut-priced 3-series in its higher up trims...heck, the GLX VR6 offered standard 6-cylinder power, wood, leather, etc. etc. in a $28k compact german sedan...it was gunning right for the 325i and the A4 1.8T, really. The new Jetta is very much doing the same.

The problem is that when VW tries to straddle traditional segments like that with one model, people always pigeon hole it into the cheaper segment, so it never becomes a competitor in the higher segment, even if it deserves to be considered. The higher priced models, then, don't become the worth competitors to more expensive machinery like they deserve to be, they're just overpriced Corolla (in the Jetta's case) or Camry (in the Passat's case) competitors that get snubbed by the buying public...it really is all a matter of perception, and of people trying to fit everything into predefined segments.

Really, VW's segment-straddling strategy had always been what endeared me to them, partially because the sharp cutoff between economy and mainstream models has always left me in the lurch (there is very little out there that's about $20k...plenty for less, and plenty for more, but not much AT that price range...and VW is there to fill the void), plus it's just a unique take on car pricing and marketing.
Dweezil
QUOTE(clarkma5 @ Nov 17 2005, 02:35 AM) *
Given the force behind the Touareg and the Phaeton from the management of VW, I'd say you're wrong.

Only after the failure of the Phaeton have they learned that they have to be downmarket. The Passat is VW's way of pushing the envelope of what people will accept...the 3.6 model really is more into Acura/Lexus/Infiniti/BMW/Jaguar etc. etc. territory.

They'll try again with the C1...it will be cheaper than the Phaeton; a closer relative to the Passat. I suspect that it's going to be a hard sell with a sticker in the $40k+ range, even if it does turn out to be a great car...which, as I've said about the Phaeton, is a damn shame.

VW wants to move up-market, but they can't, and they shouldn't. Maybe I shouldn't have said they want to compete with the aformentioned companies, I should have said they need to compete with the aformentioned companies. When people think German speed, they think BMW. When people think German class, they think Mercedes. When people think German luxury, they think Audi or Mercedes. VW needs to be cheap Germany, or else they have no market, which as you've said, they've learned. Infringing on Audi is like GM giving Pontiac a rebadged Corvette.

VW needs to try to be that guy at the party that's relaxed and smiling and isn't afraid to dance and is telling funny stories and shit, because they're not going to be that stuck-up European guy with a cigarette in a black suit with gelled back hair that Mercedes is. They have to try and almost be a mainstream, cheaper Saab. A little bit quirky without being alienating. Something different from Toyota and Honda while still retaining the qualities of reliability and cheapness that makes them popular. If they try and play the Toyota and Honda game, they'll lose. If they try to go really cheap, they lose to the mass production American companies. They have to make fun cars that have a nice quality that are reliable and maybe a little more expensive than their counterparts. And that means no super expensive luxo yachts. You have to go one way or the other. If Mazda made an expensive landbarge, it would be suicide. They have Audi for that, like Toyota has Lexus for that. I don't think they should try again with the C1, but whatever, i'm not running the company.
goota
I apologize in advance...


Phaetowned!
dukenukem
They could move upmarket but then they would have to change their name ... i mean how many upmarket car company's name read "the people carrier" ?
nismo
QUOTE(Dweezil @ Nov 17 2005, 03:06 AM) *
When people think German speed, they think BMW.


Umm.... Porsche?
Dweezil
QUOTE(nismo @ Nov 17 2005, 10:26 AM) *
Umm.... Porsche?

Too expensive for me to count. Well, I guess with the Boxster, maybe not...

Anyway when I say people I say the majority, and the majority aren't going to be buying or thinking about purchasing Porsches.
Mitlov
QUOTE(Dweezil @ Nov 17 2005, 07:42 AM) *
Too expensive for me to count. Well, I guess with the Boxster, maybe not...

Anyway when I say people I say the majority, and the majority aren't going to be buying or thinking about purchasing Porsches.

But "the majority" don't drive BMWs either. Certainly not BMW M cars. They drive like Chevys and Fords and Toyotas and stuff.
Dweezil
QUOTE(Mitlov @ Nov 17 2005, 11:40 AM) *
But "the majority" don't drive BMWs either. Certainly not BMW M cars. They drive like Chevys and Fords and Toyotas and stuff.

BMW is mass production though (which is another reason why I didn't really consider Porsche), and even if their cars aren't all that fast, they're seen as a performance brand by most people. The Ultimate Driving Machine, and all that.
Autovisie
QUOTE(Mitlov @ Nov 17 2005, 07:32 AM) *
So what car companies ARE profitable nowadays? Just Honda, Toyota, and BMW?
Porsche
Dweezil
QUOTE(Autovisie @ Nov 17 2005, 01:22 PM) *
Porsche

Are they really? I knew they were doing very well, but I had thought previous to the release of the 997 Cayenne sales and 911 sales had slowed dramatically.
leif
yes...911 sales slowed before the new model came out...that is typical...so did boxster sales...

porsche is the most profitable car company out there today, bar none. whic is astounding as it looked like the end of the company in the early 90's.

Porsche is atcally aproaching a milestone soon...they are set to sell 100,000 cars in 2008, just before the release of the "Panamerica"
TrueSlideXL
So does this mean you can pick up one for around $40,000?
drool3.gif
Mitlov
QUOTE(Autovisie @ Nov 17 2005, 10:22 AM) *
Porsche

But isn't Porsche just a division of VAG? That's like saying that Volvo is profitable. Volvo itself is, but Ford Motor Company as a whole is not. I was asking about entire companies, not just brands within companies. I should have been more specific.
TrueSlideXL
BMW is the last truly independant auto manufacturer in the world. Everybody else shares a model(s) with another company.
clarkma5
QUOTE(Mitlov @ Nov 17 2005, 01:49 PM) *
But isn't Porsche just a division of VAG?

GRRRR for the last fucking time NO! Porsche is independent; in fact, they just bought 20% of VW. Why does everybody think Porsche is owned by VW!?!?
Mitlov
QUOTE(clarkma5 @ Nov 17 2005, 03:20 PM) *
GRRRR for the last fucking time NO! Porsche is independent; in fact, they just bought 20% of VW. Why does everybody think Porsche is owned by VW!?!?

Chill out dude.

Everyone probably thinks that because of the Tuareg/Cayenne. And people assume that the large volume/low price company owns the small volume/high price company (as opposed to vice versa), because that's how it works with most everybody else.

QUOTE(TrueSlideXL @ Nov 17 2005, 01:54 PM) *
BMW is the last truly independant auto manufacturer in the world. Everybody else shares a model(s) with another company.

But are they really "independent" when they own and control other companies, like Mini (and Rolls-Royce if my memory serves me)? They're still part of a larger family. They just happen to be the head of the family.
clarkma5
it wasn't being angry at you, it was just frustration with people in general.
moe
QUOTE(clarkma5 @ Nov 18 2005, 02:20 AM) *
GRRRR for the last fucking time NO! Porsche is independent; in fact, they just bought 20% of VW. Why does everybody think Porsche is owned by VW!?!?


Did they actually buy 20%? Last I heard they backed out of that deal.
clarkma5
That's what I heard too but apparently they went through with it.
TrueSlideXL
No BMW car or truck is shared with another company, BTW that Rolls and Mini are owned by BMW is not important because neither has a bearing on what BMW's are made and there is no parts sharing beyond third party suppliers.
Megadeus
So the Phantom's BMW-derived V12 is considered third-party?
DakianDelomast
Kinda like the V8 that Land Rover got. biggrin.gif
Mitlov
QUOTE(TrueSlideXL @ Nov 17 2005, 08:48 PM) *
No BMW car or truck is shared with another company, BTW that Rolls and Mini are owned by BMW is not important because neither has a bearing on what BMW's are made and there is no parts sharing beyond third party suppliers.

Doesn't have bearing? So it's sheer coincidence that BMW doesn't sell a car in the United States that competes directly with the Mini Cooper?

Sure, BMW doesn't rebadge cars. But it's crazy to think that BMW corporation doesn't consider what cars its subsidiaries build when deciding what models BMW should and should not develop.
White RSX
QUOTE(Dweezil @ Nov 17 2005, 02:28 AM) *
VW doesn't want to compete with Saab and Volvo- They want to compete with Chevy, Honda, Nissan and Toyota.

VW is german, they compete with everyone until they lose.
TrueSlideXL
The 1 series is coming.
leif
QUOTE(TrueSlideXL @ Nov 17 2005, 10:48 PM) *
No BMW car or truck is shared with another company, BTW that Rolls and Mini are owned by BMW is not important because neither has a bearing on what BMW's are made and there is no parts sharing beyond third party suppliers.


um...isnt the "new" mini based on a shortend 3 Series platform?

and im sure BMW, being a good company which is interested in profits, would attempt to streamline their products to either, reduce competition between its brands, or to make the competition bennificial to the BMW group. To assume that BMW dosent think about the impact its brands have on one another is silly.

This was kinda the failure of the Phaeton, it wasnt streamlined to enhance its competition...it was thrown right in the middle of Audi teritory, with no obvious advantage (although I would rather have a Phaeton W12 than an A8) over the A8. they should have played up the engineering prowes of the Phaeton....promoted it as a car "for the guy who loves gadgets and engineering"

But the marketing didnt do any of this...and now it has failed...
DakianDelomast
lol FWD mini and a RWD 3 series sharing the same platform... man you make me laff some days leif.
leif
QUOTE(DakianDelomast @ Nov 18 2005, 10:58 AM) *
lol FWD mini and a RWD 3 series sharing the same platform... man you make me laff some days leif.


hum...good point...was it tha Chassis i was thinking of? I know the mini platform was not "new for the mini" in the typical sence of the term new...but more in the Porsche "80% new" way of thinking about it.
Mitlov
QUOTE
Doesn't have bearing? So it's sheer coincidence that BMW doesn't sell a car in the United States that competes directly with the Mini Cooper?


QUOTE(TrueSlideXL @ Nov 18 2005, 07:53 AM) *
The 1 series is coming.

The Mini Cooper starts at $16,500. The 1-Series will probably be what, $8000-10000 more? That's not direct competition, even if they are both hatchbacks. BMW will never try to build a car that costs in the high teens or low 20s, because they have Mini to cover that market for them. Thus, Mini has bearing on what cars BMW does and does not design.

Think of it this way. Does Jeep share any designs with Chrysler? No, not to my knowledge. Jeep makes SUVs and Chrysler makes cars and minivans. But the two companies are not independent, because they're financially linked. And Jeep influences what Chrysler makes. Chrysler doesn't have to make SUVs because Jeep has that covered.
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